On Friday, former president Donald Trump sat down for what could be one of the most consequential interviews of this US election cycle: not with the New York Times or the Washington Post, but with Joe Rogan, host of the world’s top podcast.
Locked in a too-close-to-call race for the White House, both Trump and Democratic rival Kamala Harris have in large part eschewed traditional news media to chase new audiences — a sign, experts say, of a shifting US media landscape.
Podcasts, once dominated by true crime and lifestyle shows, now offer candidates a highly effective way to target otherwise hard-to-reach audiences, on often friendly terms and with hosts who have huge influence on their listeners’ views.
With a growing audience of millions — many of them young and potentially first-time voters — the medium’s appeal is clear.
Rogan’s podcast has a staggering 17.5 million subscribers on YouTube alone, and 14 million on Spotify. The average age of his listeners is just 24, according to Media Monitors.
“The US media ecosystem is ever-changing, and so the campaigns must change too,” said Megan Duncan, an associate professor at Virginia Tech.
“In a campaign this close, where voters are so familiar with the nominees, it makes sense to reach out to low-propensity and new voters.”
– Podcast blitz –
In the last decade, print and broadcast news media have seen a steady decline while the reach of podcasts grew exponentially, including among listeners using them as news sources, Pew data shows.
About a third of US adults under 30 say they listen to podcasts at least a few times a week, Pew found.
Harris and Trump’s choices on the trail have reflected this shift.
Running a truncated campaign since taking over the Democratic ticket in July, Harris has gone on at least six podcasts, with more appearances slated.
Trump has done at least 16, speaking to hosts ranging from sports stars to YouTube pranksters — most with overwhelmingly male audiences.
So, what do the candidates stand to gain?
– ‘Natural fit’ –
For one, experts say, the longer-form chats on podcasts are conducted in a more informal atmosphere than the adversarial format of interviews with professional journalists.
“Podcasts are a natural fit for Trump,” said Lea Redfern, a media and communications lecturer at the University of Sydney.
“These one-on-one conversations feel more like discussions than traditional, interrogative interviews, and Trump appears to be very comfortable.”
This format allows listeners to feel like they are “‘getting to know’ the candidate,” Redfern added, with discussion often less focused on talking points than other media.
In a recent appearance on comedian Theo Von’s popular “This Past Weekend” podcast, for example, Trump spoke at length about how his brother’s struggles with alcoholism shaped him, and expressed empathy for Von’s own battle with addiction.
It was a far cry from his normally hyper-aggressive rhetoric on the campaign trail.
On the hugely popular “Call Her Daddy” podcast, Harris spoke in informal tones about her upbringing and the challenges she has faced as a woman in public service.
– ‘Parasocial relationships’ –
Another draw is the outsized influence that popular podcast hosts can have on their audiences.
“Podcast audiences are loyal audiences,” said Redfern. “The connection with a podcast host is made via headphones, directly into the listeners’ ears. This can create what feels like an intimate relationship.”
The familiarity of listening to hosts talk openly about their lives several times a week can also create “a type of parasocial relationship” for audiences, said Duncan.
That can give them significant power to shape listeners’ views.
“If a person is a loyal listener to a podcast centered on a personality, being part of that audience might morph from something they do to someone they are,” said Duncan.
“Once that transformation happens, it will take something monumental to get the listener to reject the information they got from the podcast.”
In an election that could be decided by the thinnest of margins, Trump and Harris will be hoping that swaying the right niche audience can make all the difference.